Rant - Nobody is pro-abortion and does not exist!
Posted by MJ "revoltingpawn" on January 29, 2008
I was browsing the latest WordPress stories and came across a totally idiotic post. The title “Obama, the proabort” really set me off. If was just another of the increasingly negative slams against Barack Obama the emerging Democratic and Presidential front runner, it would not cause me to pause. The problem is a pro-abortion stance really does not exist…
Nobody who supports abortion rights believes it is the first option but is the last. No this not the same as when George said war in Iraq would be the last option. Why is so hard to understand that being pro-choice means that abortion can still not be a option at all for someone? The reason the pro-life crowd likes the term pro-abortion and not pro-choice is because it clouds the whole issue and helps them make their losing argument. Pro-abortion sounds more evil if not really accurate. I have been guilty of kinda the same thing when say pro-life people really are just pro-birth but that’s a another story.
I also took issue in the post using the term “radical”. Since when is someone a “radical” who supports Roe vs. Wade? It is the law of the land and the majority of the people do agree with the decision so it would not seem so “radical”.
Rant over and also like to disclose I am a recovering Catholic myself.
This entry was posted on January 29, 2008 at 1:14 pm and is filed under Politics, Rants, Religion, Wordpress Political Blogs. Tagged: abortion rights, anti-abortion, Barack Obama, Democrats, Government, Politics, pro-abortion, pro-choice, pro-life, Rants, Religion, Roe vs. Wade, Wordpress Political Blogs. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
January 29, 2008 at 1:26 pm
You are absolutely correct. Also, the guys who come up with all this stuff fail to mention that the Supreme Court that decided the Roe v. Wade case was made up of 5 GOP appointed judges to 4 democratic appointments. I guess that means republicans are “radical”…
January 29, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Thanks for the comment amy and I checked out your site and see you and our mother site shadowdemocracy.org both have a thing for quotes.
Sorry but we do suck at the poetry thing…
January 29, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Thank you for posting this. It reassures me that at least some people use their brain. Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion. There are people who don’t believe abortion is the right, but they are completely pro-choice, giving the woman the choice on what she should do. Abortion is an option, but not the only option.
January 29, 2008 at 5:26 pm
What lecya said!
January 29, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Cheers to you for catching the complexity.
January 29, 2008 at 6:37 pm
- I read the same post and had the same reaction, but instead of posting to my own blog I just sat here and tried to keep my head from exploding.
Guess that’s why I’m not a very good blogger
January 29, 2008 at 6:53 pm
You are incorrect when you say pro-choice advocates view abortion as a last resort. It is just the simplest resort. Otherwise more mothers who did not want their babies would put them up for adoption. However, instead women take the easy way out and have an abortion.
January 29, 2008 at 7:28 pm
There are women out there, however, who go around knocking guys left and right, they are very promiscuous. When they realise that they have a baby, quite often — and I knew one or two — they chose the abortion asap as it would “ruin their lifestyle” or “be a burden onto them”.
January 29, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Wow! 6 posts before the inevitable degeneration into the typically antiabortion male response (titusferguson) and double standard male response (jersey). FYI: I am a married grandfather who used to ticket split.
Apparently, titus doesn’t see the unadopted children already here as worthy of attention. Take care of what we have before we add more. Most women who choose adoption or abortion don’t find either one “easy”.
Jersey clearly does not distinguish between being pregnant and “having a baby”. Anyone who has suffered through a miscarriage could explain it to you. And they might not be so gentle.
Try to see the other side of the question, guys.
January 29, 2008 at 8:48 pm
I’m so glad crashco said it (and said it well) because I was about to let loose on these guys, but I calmed myself down and didn’t bother wasting my energy. Thanks for clarifying it for people who only want to see things their way… though I doubt they’ll listen. People are stubborn in their beliefs.
January 29, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Wow, straw men left and right crascho. I didn’t say that unadopted children weren’t worthy of attention. To represent my views like that is quite uncharitable. To criticize Jersey’s view because he chose to use the words “have a baby” over “pregnant” is quite juvenile and does not get at the heart of what he was saying.
All I have have said, to sum it up again since you didn’t get it the first time, was that abortion is rarely seen as the final option, it is seen as the quickest and unfortunately the easiest, because once its over women think they won’t have to worry about it any more.
I think you are entitled to your opinion, I just wish you would represent mine more accurately if you want to argue.
January 29, 2008 at 9:53 pm
First: I did not critique anyone’s opinion. I critiqued 2 posts. How well those posts represent anyone’s opinion is a question for the posters, not I. Since you say orphaned and abandoned children are worthy, I look forward to hearing of your work to help out. More is always welcome.
Second: What polls have been taken to determine that abortion is “rarely seen as the final option…”. I haven’t seen any polls or sociological studies to support that contention. Unsupported blanket statements are even more common than straw men.
Third: I think I made it clear why “have a baby” (another straw man) is not accurate and pregnant is.
I was trying to refute parts of certain posts. That is debate or even discussion, not argument. For that, listen to Rush or Chris Matthews. They don’t see a need to support their points, either. That’s called shouting, or argument by volume. It frequently includes words like juvenile, not so charitable itself.
January 29, 2008 at 11:41 pm
I doubt you truly think that a “post” is not an “opinion”. Nor do I think you’ll find many people on the internet you think like you claim to.
You don’t know me, or any of the work that I do to help out those less fortunate so I suggest that you reserve judgment on the point.
If abortion truly were the last option, it would not be as common as it is. Unfortunately women are not given the information they require and so make hasty choices.
You continue to ignore what I am saying about the phrases “have a baby” and “pregnancy”. As far as Jersey’s comment goes, the two are synonymous and you ought to treat them as such.
I understand that you are trying to refute, but what you did, and continue to do, is misrepresent. My use of the word “juvenile” is accurate, that is what children do; they pick at the words used and not their contextual meaning.
I know your not going to change your opinion, at this point I don’t think thats what we’re arguing about. Arguing logically is important for both sides of any issue. If you feel I’ve misrepresented you at all, then by all means let me know.
January 30, 2008 at 12:40 am
A little self-disclosure here. When I was 20 I got pregnant and had an abortion. I was raised in a evangelical Christian home, so the fact that I was having sex in the first place was bad enough as it was. I had been strongly “pro-life” (as the term existed in my mind) for my entire life to that point. I cringe when I remember that I actually even participated in a pro-life march to the steps of the capital building in Little Rock.
After I had the abortion, because I lived in such a polarized world I thought, well, that must mean that I am pro-choice. I forced myself into the pro-choice box and continued to live in my polarized world, just now it was on the other side.
I’m thankful that I don’t have to do that to myself anymore. I agree with your statement that “pro-abortion” doesn’t really exist. And for that matter, neither does pro-life. Studies show that Americans are *profoundly* ambivalent about the issue of abortion, most not wanting to outlaw it, but also not wanting it to have to be a choice. (I am adamant that the answer lies in social change).
This kind of argument forces us into polarizing each other, which only pushes us farther away from dialogue, and from each other. There has to be a better way to talk about this. Otherwise, we never once see each other in the midst of the talk- the stories, the hearts that are broken, lost, confused, and that those hearts come from both sides of the issue.
January 30, 2008 at 12:52 am
Hehehe…I am a woman, not a man, first off.
Have you heard about the wealthy couple in Canada last year who, after finding their baby was going to be born with Down syndrome, they got an abortions simply because they didn’t want their yuppie lifestyle compromised by this child’s “excessive” companion and medical needs? (The mom quoted something like that, not the reporter, not my interpretation.)
Unfortunately, most people I know who are pro-choice are not seeing it as for a last option; most of them believe a woman shouldn’t have to put up with pregnancy if she didn’t want to. And these were people who were promiscuous, and I grew up in a secular, moderate family, growing up with friends who are gay, promiscuous (they love sex, period), and went to a conservative-moderate church before I became a freethinker.
I just think that abortion should not be made as a general opinion, it should be made on a case-to-case scenario — for example, as I think in most cases a woman should keep the child and give it for adoption rather than abortion, sometimes medical scenarios like entropic pregnancy and maybe some instances of rape or incest, the woman should and has to do abortion — otherwise, she would die as well.
January 30, 2008 at 1:37 am
Well done! I wish I could share your optimism about it being a losing argument…
January 30, 2008 at 1:45 am
I see since have been at work we have a discussion going on…
Thanks amy, lecya, Astra, and crashco for your insightful comments.
Jersey…
What the hell does your comment besides show your disrespect for woman have to do with my post?
titusferguson, you said…
“You are incorrect when you say pro-choice advocates view abortion as a last resort. It is just the simplest resort. Otherwise more mothers who did not want their babies would put them up for adoption. However, instead women take the easy way out and have an abortion.”
I assume in your comment were saying I am incorrect? How does more mothers not having their babies and giving them up for adoption have to do with how pro-choice advocates view abortion? I love it when someone tells another group what they think. You are right when say going full term with a pregnancy is not easy but us being guys we can’t fully understand how really hard it is.
You also said…
“Unfortunately women are not given the information they require and so make hasty choices.”
I assume you fully support sex education in the schools and planned parenthood so woman do have all information needed to make that decision? I also very much doubt most woman make hasty choices when faced with a unwanted pregnancy.
You seemed to have resorted to a black and white viewpoint and didn’t truly understand what I was really saying in the post. Pro-choice people (notice didn’t need to say advocate) are not running around saying abortion is the best thing since sliced bread, hence saying they are pro-abortion is just wrong. Guess what? Many pro-choice woman who are faced with a unwanted pregnancy do not have an abortion and conversely pro-life woman in the same situation sometimes do have abortions. People do not always act based on what they believe in but in a life changing situation that personally affects them they should have a choice in how to handle it.
January 30, 2008 at 2:03 am
See before I could finish writing my long response to past comments we have even more comments.
kkaraboo…
Thanks for sharing your real life experiences.
Jersey…
Sorry but free thinkers don’t make generalizations, promote stereotypes, and make hateful comments. What is your thing with promiscuous woman? Thanks for saying we can kinda have a choice in certain simplistic situations. Life is not that cut and dry…
January 30, 2008 at 10:08 am
Then why don’t pro choiceers like Obama support barricades to abortions for minors, like parental notification? Why does Obanma support partial birth abortion?
Face it, he doesn’t legislate against it because he doesn’t see anything bad about it.
January 30, 2008 at 10:15 am
MJ, have to agree with you here…
“Guess what? Many pro-choice women who are faced with a unwanted pregnancy do not have an abortion and conversely pro-life woman in the same situation sometimes do have abortions. People do not always act based on what they believe in but in a life changing situation that personally affects them they should have a choice in how to handle it.”
I myself am “pro-choice”. When I became pregnant, I was young, poor and pretty much on my own, I definitely flirted with the idea of having an abortion but in the end decided against one. Pretty much proving your point that pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion. I am very careful about birth control but if I did become pregnant today, I’m not sure I would want another baby. The choice is mine to make and should NEVER be decided by some religious zealot who has their head up their ass.
I find it most interesting when MEN seem to have stronger opinions on this subject (See titusferguson) when they don’t actually carry the child. Titusferguson when you make comments like this “abortion is rarely seen as the final option, it is seen as the quickest and unfortunately the easiest, because once its over women think they won’t have to worry about it any more.” I’d like you to actually back it up with some FACTS and not just your personal view of the situation.
I can’t help but pick up the underlying misogynistic tone in some of your comments. Do you honestly think women just abort a fetus and never think about it again? Come on… give me a break.
January 30, 2008 at 10:47 am
In response to what Jersey said…
“Unfortunately, most people I know who are pro-choice are not seeing it as for a last option; most of them believe a woman shouldn’t have to put up with pregnancy if she didn’t want to. And these were people who were promiscuous, and I grew up in a secular, moderate family, growing up with friends who are gay, promiscuous (they love sex, period), and went to a conservative-moderate church before I became a freethinker.
I just think that abortion should not be made as a general opinion, it should be made on a case-to-case scenario — for example, as I think in most cases a woman should keep the child and give it for adoption rather than abortion, sometimes medical scenarios like entropic pregnancy and maybe some instances of rape or incest, the woman should and has to do abortion — otherwise, she would die as well.”
You call yourself a “freethinker” but are all for “the man” telling a woman if she can have an abortion or not??! What??! AND you’re a woman?
So, let’s examine your solution… how is one judged worthy of an abortion? Should be we judge by income, circumstance, mental health, physical health? Now lets say a woman who makes just enough money, is fairly sane but was denied an abortion, she now has to go looking for someone to adopt her unwanted child, what happens when she can’t find a new family? Do we then ship those unwanted babies off to foster homes? We all know what a success the foster care system is. Not to mention, I’m sure this entire “abortion approval” process would take time, time for that little fetus to grow…. Did you think that out Jersey? Just what we need… the government with more control over our lives!
I love people like you that are so quick to judge… “She should die as well”… what the hell do you think will happen with all of these unwanted kids? You “pro-lifers” or “freethinkers” (as you call yourself) never seem to think things out past the birth of the child. You just want it born, no matter what a miserable life it may be in for…
January 30, 2008 at 1:33 pm
BuffaloGal thanks for your addition to the discussion.
Sam James, you said…
“Then why don’t pro choiceers like Obama support barricades to abortions for minors, like parental notification? Why does Obanma support partial birth abortion?
Face it, he doesn’t legislate against it because he doesn’t see anything bad about it.”
Your comment was mostly irrelevant and showed you failed to understand the point of my post. Just because Obmaa leaves the choice to the woman does mean he personally believes abortion is a good idea.
Why is the concept so hard to understand for some people? It’s called personal freedom and not someone pushing their beliefs on someone else.
February 2, 2008 at 2:17 am
MJ you are so right, it’s all about CHOICE, and just because you are a decent human being and allow women to make their own choice doesn’t necessarily mean you have to fully agree with those choices.
People need to have unbiased education about all the options, and unhindered access to them. Whatever choice a woman makes it has to be HER choice.
BuffaloGal, I liked your comments, you are so right to complain about men who have strong opinions like titus. However there are some of us men who can empathize with women and strongly believe their body is their own. No Government or religious organization should be telling them what to do with it. Particularly in respect to the choices women make regarding contraception and after pregnancy care; whether that be the morning after pill, abortion, adoption or whatever.
PS. do you think I used the word ‘choice’ enough?
February 3, 2008 at 11:42 am
I happen to agree with you that there is no such thing as pro-abortion, but, if you look at the whole pro-life/pro-choice debate, it eventually becomes clear that there is no debate either. Everyone can take a stand on the issue and then stick to it up to the point when, all of a sudden, they are faced with a difficult decision themselves where they find that the best decision for them happens to be the opposite of what they supported. It’s impossible to take a real informed stand on an issue like this one unless you yourself have been personally involved a situation that forced you to make those decisions in your own life.
February 15, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Staying with the post as I understood it….I agree pro abortion is a term designed to paint a negative image.I would stipulate that none of the names are good ones though. logical extension of pro life dictates many views not held by those that sit under the banner. pro choice is a fallacy since it demeans the decision process and distorts certain realities.As for Obama I don’t like him for a lot of reasons and this isn’t one of them. It is time this ceases to be an issue. Welsome to the WPPBA
February 15, 2008 at 4:10 pm
in2thefray…
Thanks for the welcome…
Not following you on the criticism of the pro-choice label. It simply means the mother (with input from the father) has the choice in what happens with her body and no one else. I have always had a problem with the term pro-life since it seems pro-birth would be a better one.
February 20, 2008 at 4:04 am
May I ask a question? Why is the unborn always to be defined by the parameters of human rights and women’s rights? Is there any rational justification for determining the position of the unborn by way of human rights of women’s rights?
February 20, 2008 at 11:47 pm
G.Myb…
When living in a free society one’s rights will sometimes come in conflict with a others rights. Forcing a woman to go full term would leave her with no rights so we give her the choice and she will live with that choice. Does the unborn even have rights?
April 16, 2008 at 8:30 am
RE: “I have always had a problem with the term pro-life since it seems pro-birth would be a better one.”
I think pro-life is perfectly accurate. No matter how you say it, there will be a baby born if it is not killed first. Should women have the “right” to decide if the baby lives or dies? Yes, with certain restrictions, like the health of the mother and if it is in the first trimester, etc. But I would never choose to have my baby killed. And a lot of people agree, including Roe (Norma McCorvey) from Roe vs Wade, who has turned pro-life and now wishes she had never had an abortion.
BTW, Pro partial-birth abortion, as Obama is, is a radical position.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html
“But Obama’s record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion — a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called “too close to infanticide.” Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban. In the Illinois state Senate, he opposed a bill similar to the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which prevents the killing of infants mistakenly left alive by abortion.”
April 16, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Dude…
Unfortunately, you missed the point of my post. Obama is no more pro partial-birth abortion then he is pro-abortion. He is for the right of woman to make their own choice, period. He does not have to agree with all the options. The word itself, partial-birth abortion is a made up word much like the word Darwinism that was constructed by the right to frame the issue in a certain political light. The word is not a recognized medical term for any procedure as far as I know.
I made reference to the word pro-birth because I always found it ironic that the majority of pro-lifers tend to also be pro-war, pro-death penalty, and against universal health care even for children. Those positions don’t seem to mesh with the term pro-life.
“Should women have the “right” to decide if the baby lives or dies?”
Yes, the right of a woman to choose what happens to her body supersedes the rights of (or lack of) a unborn person. Yes, it may not be fair or conform to everyone’s set of morals or values.
To be honest, us both being guys are comments are not really that relevant. I think the females (except Jersey) who commented in this tread were the most noteworthy and we should pay more attention to their words and experiences.